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SEO Advice needed - homepage devalued because out of date URLs go to Home not 404

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lneville
Posts:73



04/03/2008 8:34 AM  

I have a large CATALook based e-commerce site. New pages and products are regularly added and old pages and products retired. Suppose Google indexes a product page, or a link to that page is created on an external site, but then later the product and/or page is retired. The URL obviously no longer leads to the same page, but instead of resulting in a 404 error, it leads to the home page of the site (this is not a function of CATALook I think, but a general DNN feature; the only way to trigger a 404 error seems to be to request something other than default.aspx, e.g. fgbobgowu.aspx).

This means that over time there could be more and more links to the homepage appearing to exist. The risk is that the search engines will start seeing these URLs all going to the homepage, and this will devalue the homepage as it will appear that there is duplicate content- which is a bad thing for the SEO of the site.

Can anyone suggest anything to avoid this devaluation of the homepage (or tell me I am wrong)?

SnapsisHost
Posts:94



04/04/2008 8:57 AM  

Yes, that is a problem with more than just Catalook.  On the scale of "how bad" I would think it is pretty small though.

What I do is create unique pages with real page names that I then point to different Catalook products when they change.  I have just recently updated my http://www.snapsis.com/PageBlaster.aspx page to point to a different internal product page.  I do this using the SiteUrls.config file.  That only helps with new versions of the same product, or if you have a page name that makes sense to point somewhere else though.  Generally you want to have Pages like this that build up links over time so that they build their page rank.

That's not really the question you asked though. If you really want a 404 response for a specific page then I think you could add a rewrite rule to siteUrls.config, but have it rewrite (sent to) a page that doesn't exist.

Technically, when you retire a product, Catalook should give you some options about the response. That would be the best place to handle it. 

Since Catalook does not have that option yet, and you may even want to do this for other modules the next best thing that I can think of is to have another module on the page that can look at the incoming Urls and using a rules based system return a specific response (404, 301 redirect, etc.) 
A 301 redirect would even have the advantage of passing the PageRank along to the page you redirect to so it might be nice for retired products to point back to the start page of the store.

Hey, I just happen to have a module that can do that. :) http://www.snapsis.com/PageBlaster.aspx

I think you may be able to do different responses with the core RequestFilter also but I honestly have not done anything with that at all since PageBlaster does that and a lot more.

lneville
Posts:73



04/04/2008 1:32 PM  
Hmmm, now I have a bunch more questions from what you said!

#1 - you said (and I've heard you say this before) that you don't think the "duplicate content" penalty is too bad to worry about. Do you have anything to substantiate that? I don't have anything to back my claim up myself other than that's what my SEO expert said, and I've seen it mentioned on numerous lists of SEO do's and don't's.

#2 - There are way to many pages and products to do manual URL rewriting for (i.e. maintain in a file). The pages and products are created automatically with SQL procedures, and the site is administered by people who don't have access to the server. There are maybe 50 pages, each listing around 20 products. So, moving onto your PageBlaster idea (I am a big fan already) ....

I mislead you a bit saying the visitor was redirected to home when they followed a URL to a product that is now retired (but the page it was on still exists). That case actually results in a "No Products found." message and no redirect, which is not a big deal. It is only the case where the page itself has been deleted that results in a redirect to home.

So, given that, I am not sure how the PB idea could be applied ... as no PB module on a page is going to get loaded. It would have to be something that can examine the request before DNN gets its hands on it and does the redirect. I know PB is an HTTP module also (or was - it is a regular desktop module now??). Is there some way PB as an HTTP module could detect that the request was for a TabID that does not exist, and trigger a 404 (301 probably better as you said)?
John Mitchell
Posts:3196



04/06/2008 8:51 AM  

As with most assumptions/theories in search engine optimization we can't really say specifically what happens, but if we use Google as a benchmark then we can get a pretty good idea of how to rank the different SEO do's and dont's. In this blog post from Google they state:

" During our crawling and when serving search results, we try hard to index and show pages with distinct information. This filtering means, for instance, that if your site has articles in "regular" and "printer" versions and neither set is blocked in robots.txt or via a noindex meta tag, we'll choose one version to list. In the rare cases in which we perceive that duplicate content may be shown with intent to manipulate our rankings and deceive our users, we'll also make appropriate adjustments in the indexing and ranking of the sites involved. However, we prefer to focus on filtering rather than ranking adjustments ... so in the vast majority of cases, the worst thing that'll befall webmasters is to see the "less desired" version of a page shown in our index. "

So I don't rank getting rid of duplicate content as high as getting quality inbound links, having keywords in the page name, having keywords in well structured html tags, etc.

If you have a lot of products that are retiring all the time, but they have inbound links, then I think it would be best to change the page they are getting redirected to so that it is a 301 redirect, and then make sure that people have a nice index of all your products when they get there.  Taking it one step further you may even be able to list related products on the product not found page.  Of course that will take some changes in Catalook, but I think Suzanne would be willig to put them in the next version.

Yes, the new PageBlaster has the ability to do redirects at the Portal level based on conditional Regular Expression rules so you could create a Regular expression that basically has a list of retired products and have them 301 redirected to a new page that is specifically designed as I described above.

I just did some research, and what is actually happening is the module that loads the item details is returning a "Product not found" message, and there isn't any redirect happening.

So if you have PageBlaster on the item page, it still gets loaded with the simple "product not found" message.  As a first step you could also change the "Product not found" message to be more like what I described above. The message is located in a local resouce file at /DesktopModules/CatalookStore/App_LocalResources/productdetails.aspx.resx

Going even farther, you could use PageBlaster to conditionally replace the "Product not found" message with dynamic content based on the Url which still has the orginal link.

 

lneville
Posts:73



04/08/2008 8:38 AM  
OK, thanks for the advice about dealing with retired products. What I want to concentrate on first is stopping the redirect to home when following a URL to a page (i.e. tabID) that no longer exists (and I got what you said about the duplicate content, thanks, and I'll try to use it to appease my other SEO expert!).

So, is there an way for PB, at the portal level, to generate a 301 or 404 when it intercepts a request for a tab ID that does not exist?

When I say automatedly, I mean I don't have to add a new rule to the config file each time a page is deleted. For example, in the new PB is there any way to store the rules in the DB (I could manufacture new rules automatically if that were the case)?
lneville
Posts:73



04/08/2008 10:09 AM  
FYI (and I'm not trying to start an argument here, just thought you might find it interesting), my SEO guy's response to your comment about his assertion that duplicate content is significant, is this:

It's 16-17 months on from that Google blog and I don't think that Google is anywhere near having a bug free dupe filter.
They may pay it lip service but I and my colleagues haven't seen much evidence. Whenever we've come across a dupe content issue and its been removed there is always a noticeable improvement. So, while its impact is tough to quantify, its not something that should be ignored.
John Mitchell
Posts:3196



04/08/2008 9:56 PM  

Here's a newer blog post by Vanessa Fox that says basically the same thing:

http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2007/06/duplicate-content-summit-at-smx.html

I do find it interesting that some people find it so important that they have to have a whole summit based on duplicate content.

Anyway, on to the question.

Unfortunately PageBlaster cannot currently intercept the 302 redirect back to the main portal alias that is happening from calling a page that is no longer there (or one that was never there for that matter).

What you can do for SEO is block those pages in Robots.txt. This is the best and easiest way to make sure that old pages are removed from indexes.

You could also keep the page and just hide it then put PageBlaster on it to do a proper 301 Redirect. This would have the added advantage of passing on any PageRank and also allow you to pass any inbound links to something newer or more like what the original was rather than going to the home page.

 

lneville
Posts:73



04/10/2008 4:39 AM  
I think I'll hide rather than delete pages, as you recommend. One more question - when PB is placed on a page as a module, are its rules stored in the DB? I am trying to make this site as automated as possible, so I am wondering if I could put a trigger on the Tabs table to capture the IsVisible flag being cleared and set up a 301 redirect rule in the PB module on the that page.
John Mitchell
Posts:3196



04/10/2008 7:39 AM  
Sorry, all PageBlaster configuration is stored as XML config files on the file system.

If you are interested, I could probably create a custom HttpModule that would do 301 Redirects from a table in the DB.
lneville
Posts:73



04/13/2008 6:40 AM  
OK no problem. I think I'll just have these retired pages just show a message saying "Sorry the products you were looking for are no longer available ..." plus links to other parts of the site. Maybe I'll use PageBlaster to replace the default CATALook message as you suggest.

Thanks for all your advice!
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